Other College Football

[arreferee]

Refs absolutely screwed VT. 3 missed calls in 2 plays. And then got in their feels and flagged the VT coach for yelling at them. There has to be a better system than having overweight middle aged men try and keep up with 20 year old athletes AS THEIR PART TIME JOB.

Hence the term "better system".

Hiring another out of shape middle aged guy for a part time job isn't the answer.

I can tell you one thing that would help...stop allowing junior high and senior high coaches to treat officials like crap!  Those coaches think every official should be perfect when they start and just get better from there.  You would be amazed at some of the stuff those coaches say to officials, especially young ones.  When I started 30 years ago, I was 21 years old and looked about 15.  Those types of coaches were brutal to me because I was young.  They would try to tear me down and intimidate me to get their way.  Fortunately for me, I had a very thick skin and just ignored them (I had very good mentors that prepared me for that).  The vast majority of people aren't able to do that.  And, I think it's worse with the younger generation than previous generations.  They get their feelings hurt much quicker and take things personal more often.

I can't tell you how many young officials got started at the junior high and high school levels and quit after one or two years because "It's not worth $100 for me to be berated by the coaches for 2-4 hours on a Thursday or Friday night."  So, the coaches are running off a lot of officials that could be working their games.  If those coaches at the lower levels would treat football like a game where mistakes will be made instead of a life or death situation, some of those officials might turn into some of the best in the country...but we will never know.

When this is brought up, most fans just blow it off and say better guys need to be recruited.  And then when those fans are asked to sign up and help us out, they give some excuse as to why they can't.  Of course, they would never be able to handle the job.  The types of fans that gripe the most would be in a fist fight with a coach by the end of the first quarter, but they expect the officials to take all the abuse and just let it go.

And that's just the tip of the iceberg.  If something doesn't change in the next 10 years, the shortage of officials is going to get much, much worse.  I saw a study a year or two ago that the average age of a high school official in Arkansas is something like 64 years old.  If half of the officials retire in the next 10 years, I'm not sure how the games will be covered. 

[animal]

I can tell you one thing that would help...stop allowing junior high and senior high coaches to treat officials like crap!  Those coaches think every official should be perfect when they start and just get better from there.  You would be amazed at some of the stuff those coaches say to officials, especially young ones.  When I started 30 years ago, I was 21 years old and looked about 15.  Those types of coaches were brutal to me because I was young.  They would try to tear me down and intimidate me to get their way.  Fortunately for me, I had a very thick skin and just ignored them (I had very good mentors that prepared me for that).  The vast majority of people aren't able to do that.  And, I think it's worse with the younger generation than previous generations.  They get their feelings hurt much quicker and take things personal more often.

I can't tell you how many young officials got started at the junior high and high school levels and quit after one or two years because "It's not worth $100 for me to be berated by the coaches for 2-4 hours on a Thursday or Friday night."  So, the coaches are running off a lot of officials that could be working their games.  If those coaches at the lower levels would treat football like a game where mistakes will be made instead of a life or death situation, some of those officials might turn into some of the best in the country...but we will never know.

When this is brought up, most fans just blow it off and say better guys need to be recruited.  And then when those fans are asked to sign up and help us out, they give some excuse as to why they can't.  Of course, they would never be able to handle the job.  The types of fans that gripe the most would be in a fist fight with a coach by the end of the first quarter, but they expect the officials to take all the abuse and just let it go.

And that's just the tip of the iceberg.  If something doesn't change in the next 10 years, the shortage of officials is going to get much, much worse.  I saw a study a year or two ago that the average age of a high school official in Arkansas is something like 64 years old.  If half of the officials retire in the next 10 years, I'm not sure how the games will be covered. 

Oh there's no doubt that officials catch a lot of shit and anyone should be able to realize that they can't get it right 100% of the time especially at a lower level with fewer resources.

Now the Texas game that kid 100% should have by rule gotten a targeting call. I might would argue that "you don't call that in that situation" and we can argue the merits of that sentiment one way or the next. On the same token as a Razorback fan of my 47 years on this planet deep down to my core I believe if in the unlikely event we were in a similar situation they'd have called us for that targeting EVERY SINGLE FUCKING TIME. I imagine Arizona State feels the same way. 

Obviously the officials on the field weren't gonna call a lot of stuff and to my memory they pretty much let everyone one play in these bowls/playoff games. Overall I prefer that in post season play to watching officials drag a game out.


It's the inconsistencies in games like in basketball where one team is allowed to be physical and the other team is called for every little reach and can barely touch their man. It makes no sense.

[BleedinRed]

Even if the call was wrong, a coach should be tossed for berating an official.  That would cut down on the asshole behavior.

[DirkPiggler]

Oh there's no doubt that officials catch a lot of shit and anyone should be able to realize that they can't get it right 100% of the time especially at a lower level with fewer resources.

Now the Texas game that kid 100% should have by rule gotten a targeting call. I might would argue that "you don't call that in that situation" and we can argue the merits of that sentiment one way or the next. On the same token as a Razorback fan of my 47 years on this planet deep down to my core I believe if in the unlikely event we were in a similar situation they'd have called us for that targeting EVERY SINGLE FUCKING TIME. I imagine Arizona State feels the same way.

Obviously the officials on the field weren't gonna call a lot of stuff and to my memory they pretty much let everyone one play in these bowls/playoff games. Overall I prefer that in post season play to watching officials drag a game out.


It's the inconsistencies in games like in basketball where one team is allowed to be physical and the other team is called for every little reach and can barely touch their man. It makes no sense.

I'm of the opinion that a foul or penalty is a foul or penalty regardless of the game circumstances when it occurs.  If it's not worthy of a flag in the fourth quarter with the game on the line, it shouldn't be called at 12:34 of the first quarter either, and vice-versa. 

[DirkPiggler]

Even if the call was wrong, a coach should be tossed for berating an official.  That would cut down on the asshole behavior.

Agreed, with more leeway given the higher the level.  High school and below should be zero tolerance.  At the college level, particularly power four, the refs are being paid well enough to tolerate a little verbal sparring.  Maybe they should be quicker with the unsportsmanlike conduct flag first, rather than going straight to ejections.  But even in college and pro, the whole idea of coaches "working the officials" needs to go away. 

[jdcatty]

I can tell you one thing that would help...stop allowing junior high and senior high coaches to treat officials like crap!  Those coaches think every official should be perfect when they start and just get better from there.  You would be amazed at some of the stuff those coaches say to officials, especially young ones.  When I started 30 years ago, I was 21 years old and looked about 15.  Those types of coaches were brutal to me because I was young.  They would try to tear me down and intimidate me to get their way.  Fortunately for me, I had a very thick skin and just ignored them (I had very good mentors that prepared me for that).  The vast majority of people aren't able to do that.  And, I think it's worse with the younger generation than previous generations.  They get their feelings hurt much quicker and take things personal more often.

I can't tell you how many young officials got started at the junior high and high school levels and quit after one or two years because "It's not worth $100 for me to be berated by the coaches for 2-4 hours on a Thursday or Friday night."  So, the coaches are running off a lot of officials that could be working their games.  If those coaches at the lower levels would treat football like a game where mistakes will be made instead of a life or death situation, some of those officials might turn into some of the best in the country...but we will never know.

When this is brought up, most fans just blow it off and say better guys need to be recruited.  And then when those fans are asked to sign up and help us out, they give some excuse as to why they can't.  Of course, they would never be able to handle the job.  The types of fans that gripe the most would be in a fist fight with a coach by the end of the first quarter, but they expect the officials to take all the abuse and just let it go.

And that's just the tip of the iceberg.  If something doesn't change in the next 10 years, the shortage of officials is going to get much, much worse.  I saw a study a year or two ago that the average age of a high school official in Arkansas is something like 64 years old.  If half of the officials retire in the next 10 years, I'm not sure how the games will be covered. 

I agree with every word of this.  I eat lunch most days with 2 high school officials and sometimes one conference USA official, so I hear all the stories.

[arreferee]

Now the Texas game that kid 100% should have by rule gotten a targeting call. I might would argue that "you don't call that in that situation" and we can argue the merits of that sentiment one way or the next. On the same token as a Razorback fan of my 47 years on this planet deep down to my core I believe if in the unlikely event we were in a similar situation they'd have called us for that targeting EVERY SINGLE FUCKING TIME. I imagine Arizona State feels the same way.

The problem with targeting right now is that it seems to change every year.  The rule hasn't changed, but the philosophy has.  I'm not a replay official so they may have information that I haven't been privy to.  The Texas player lead with his forehead.  I didn't think that was targeting.  We were shown a diagram either last summer or the summer before of what the "crown" of the helmet is.  It is the very top of the head...think about putting your chin to your chest and hitting someone with the top of your head.  The Texas player didn't do that.  He could see what he hit.  I also don't think that hit was what targeting was originally meant to stop.  There wasn't much else the Texas player could have done in that situation unless he tried to adjust and go lower. 

It's the inconsistencies in games like in basketball where one team is allowed to be physical and the other team is called for every little reach and can barely touch their man. It makes no sense.

I don't have a clue how basketball games are officiated. 

[arreferee]

Even if the call was wrong, a coach should be tossed for berating an official.  That would cut down on the asshole behavior.

That would definitely cut down on the behavior, but I don't think anyone wants to go that far.  A coach could say "That was a terrible call" and one official could say that was berating and toss the coach.  Nobody wants that.  I'm not sure what the answer is, but I think that's too far.

[arreferee]

I'm of the opinion that a foul or penalty is a foul or penalty regardless of the game circumstances when it occurs.  If it's not worthy of a flag in the fourth quarter with the game on the line, it shouldn't be called at 12:34 of the first quarter either, and vice-versa. 

I agree...in a competitive game. 

[arreferee]

Agreed, with more leeway given the higher the level.  High school and below should be zero tolerance.  At the college level, particularly power four, the refs are being paid well enough to tolerate a little verbal sparring.  Maybe they should be quicker with the unsportsmanlike conduct flag first, rather than going straight to ejections.  But even in college and pro, the whole idea of coaches "working the officials" needs to go away. 

I always enjoyed working for the coaches that might say something if they disagreed with what I called (or didn't call), but then went back to coaching.  They also seemed to be the most successful coaches. 

[DirkPiggler]

I agree...in a competitive game. 

Good point.  In a 51-7 blowout it's not critical to call holding, illegal shift, etc. to the letter.  Targeting, or really anything related to player safety or sportsmanship, is another matter. 

[arreferee]

I agree with every word of this.  I eat lunch most days with 2 high school officials and sometimes one conference USA official, so I hear all the stories.

I'm not sure what the answer is to the shortage of officials, but I hope someone can come up with a good one. 

[arreferee]

Good point.  In a 51-7 blowout it's not critical to call holding, illegal shift, etc. to the letter.  Targeting, or really anything related to player safety or sportsmanship, is another matter. 

Agree 100%.  Player safety and sportsmanship should always be called. 

[DirkPiggler]

I always enjoyed working for the coaches that might say something if they disagreed with what I called (or didn't call), but then went back to coaching.  They also seemed to be the most successful coaches. 

The most successful people generally focus more effort on what they can control versus what they can't.  Giving you or your crew mates an earful for multiple minutes isn't doing that.

[Cornhogio]

I can tell you one thing that would help...stop allowing junior high and senior high coaches to treat officials like crap!  Those coaches think every official should be perfect when they start and just get better from there.  You would be amazed at some of the stuff those coaches say to officials, especially young ones.  When I started 30 years ago, I was 21 years old and looked about 15.  Those types of coaches were brutal to me because I was young.  They would try to tear me down and intimidate me to get their way.  Fortunately for me, I had a very thick skin and just ignored them (I had very good mentors that prepared me for that).  The vast majority of people aren't able to do that.  And, I think it's worse with the younger generation than previous generations.  They get their feelings hurt much quicker and take things personal more often.

I can't tell you how many young officials got started at the junior high and high school levels and quit after one or two years because "It's not worth $100 for me to be berated by the coaches for 2-4 hours on a Thursday or Friday night."  So, the coaches are running off a lot of officials that could be working their games.  If those coaches at the lower levels would treat football like a game where mistakes will be made instead of a life or death situation, some of those officials might turn into some of the best in the country...but we will never know.

When this is brought up, most fans just blow it off and say better guys need to be recruited.  And then when those fans are asked to sign up and help us out, they give some excuse as to why they can't.  Of course, they would never be able to handle the job.  The types of fans that gripe the most would be in a fist fight with a coach by the end of the first quarter, but they expect the officials to take all the abuse and just let it go.

And that's just the tip of the iceberg.  If something doesn't change in the next 10 years, the shortage of officials is going to get much, much worse.  I saw a study a year or two ago that the average age of a high school official in Arkansas is something like 64 years old.  If half of the officials retire in the next 10 years, I'm not sure how the games will be covered. 

First, I think coaches talking to officials in anything but a respectful tone, particularly in HS and Jr. HS, sets a very poor example for the players.  As an AD, I would make it clear to my coaches that I won't tolerate it. 

Second, I don't know what officials make at that level, but if you're doing it for the money, just like soldiering, teaching, etc., you're not in it for the right reasons. 

Third, if I was an official, the first time a coach barked at me, it would be an immediate flag.  There has to be a clear boundary, and the official gets to set it.  If the coach is respectful, and asks for clarification, that's not the same thing.  I would think you could tell the coach that you'll walk them through it between quarters, at halftime, etc. 

Fourth, officials should be graded, and coaches and/or AD's should have visibility to the grades.  You could set an expectation that officials have to grade out and a certain level or they don't get retained.  Obviously a Jr HS official gets more grace than an SEC official would. 

Finally, I'm sick of the "it's just a game" stuff.  Coaches at every level except city league get graded on wins and losses, and it's their livelihood.  If it's "just a game" to the official, they don't need to be out there.   

[DirkPiggler]

Agree 100%.  Player safety and sportsmanship should always be called. 

I have a question on the arguing/yelling topic.

Watching unmiked coaches on TV, it sometimes looks like they are giving you guys absolute hell.  When we see a coach apparently screaming at an official, is it usually as bad as it looks?  Or is the tone of voice/facial expression more a factor of just having to be loud for you to hear him amid the commotion?

I remember a video from a Cowboys game several years ago where it looked like Dez was raking Romo over the coals on the sideline.  Both players insisted that wasn't the case, and lo and behold audio surfaced which proved the conversation was indeed positive and just discussing responsibilities on a given play, with no cursing or insulting at all. 

[jdcatty]

I'm not sure what the answer is to the shortage of officials, but I hope someone can come up with a good one. 

Yeah, the two high school officials I know are 71 and 65.  The guy that is 71 has had both knees replaced, but is still in good shape. He's been an official for 40 something odd years. But I can't see him lasting much longer.

[animal]

You cannot view this attachment.

The problem with targeting right now is that it seems to change every year.  The rule hasn't changed, but the philosophy has.  I'm not a replay official so they may have information that I haven't been privy to.  The Texas player lead with his forehead.  I didn't think that was targeting.  We were shown a diagram either last summer or the summer before of what the "crown" of the helmet is.  It is the very top of the head...think about putting your chin to your chest and hitting someone with the top of your head.  The Texas player didn't do that.  He could see what he hit.  I also don't think that hit was what targeting was originally meant to stop.  There wasn't much else the Texas player could have done in that situation unless he tried to adjust and go lower. 

That's how we were taught when I was in pee-wee there on...see what you hit. We didn't need sports science to tell us that. Crown of the helmet meant you were spearing someone. End of story.

BUT the way targeting has been consistently called (and incorrectly) is focusing only on the forcible contact to the head and/or neck area with little or no regard for if the player was actually dipping his head. At times I've seen an offensive player go lower than maybe the defensive guy could react and they'd call a targeting foul for that. There are too many inconsistencies with HOW it's called...I agree.

I'd have to see the replay again but I felt like in real time that the Texas player had opportunity to make a cleaner hit...not nearly as "bang bang" as what it's being made out to be but maybe I'm wrong.


Here is what I could find on the actual rule


 

[Hizog]

I can tell you one thing that would help...stop allowing junior high and senior high coaches to treat officials like crap!  Those coaches think every official should be perfect when they start and just get better from there.  You would be amazed at some of the stuff those coaches say to officials, especially young ones.  When I started 30 years ago, I was 21 years old and looked about 15.  Those types of coaches were brutal to me because I was young.  They would try to tear me down and intimidate me to get their way.  Fortunately for me, I had a very thick skin and just ignored them (I had very good mentors that prepared me for that).  The vast majority of people aren't able to do that.  And, I think it's worse with the younger generation than previous generations.  They get their feelings hurt much quicker and take things personal more often.

I can't tell you how many young officials got started at the junior high and high school levels and quit after one or two years because "It's not worth $100 for me to be berated by the coaches for 2-4 hours on a Thursday or Friday night."  So, the coaches are running off a lot of officials that could be working their games.  If those coaches at the lower levels would treat football like a game where mistakes will be made instead of a life or death situation, some of those officials might turn into some of the best in the country...but we will never know.

When this is brought up, most fans just blow it off and say better guys need to be recruited.  And then when those fans are asked to sign up and help us out, they give some excuse as to why they can't.  Of course, they would never be able to handle the job.  The types of fans that gripe the most would be in a fist fight with a coach by the end of the first quarter, but they expect the officials to take all the abuse and just let it go.

And that's just the tip of the iceberg.  If something doesn't change in the next 10 years, the shortage of officials is going to get much, much worse.  I saw a study a year or two ago that the average age of a high school official in Arkansas is something like 64 years old.  If half of the officials retire in the next 10 years, I'm not sure how the games will be covered. 

I have worked some low level basketball and baseball games (under 12). I will admit, it is MUCH harder than it looks and I was not good at it. I try to have a little more grace when criticizing officials.

In this case, my main point was to say that I think a better system should be implemented. At least at the higher levels of sport like Power 5 football and NFL. There are too many missed calls and reviews take too long considering the technology available.

We have multiple camera angles that show the correct call within 5-10 seconds of a play. Keep the officials on the field and have two officials remotely watching. If there's a disagreement on a call, then majority 2/3rds win, AND they have an official who joins the broadcast to explain the decision instead of a network referee expert who is giving his opinion. I would think more transparency would be good for everyone involved.

[Texzilla]

I get hating on ND because of the way they are coddled. You guys aren't really anti ND over some weird religious deal though, right?

What? Because they are papists? I remember them being called fish eaters way back when.  I do t hate them because they're Catholic. I hate them because growing up they were on tv all the damn time and that was when we got one or two games a Saturday.