Other College Football

[jdcatty]

While I agree it's an issue that's harming the game, I don't agree that you want me to determine when someone is actually hurt.  The rules committee needs to address it so we aren't guessing.

I agree with this.  However, if the official sees the coach on the sideline motioning for someone to get down, something should be called.  Like maybe kick the coach out of the game. Now I realize the officials will say "I'm not watching the coaches" and that is true.  But good lord Kiffin has done it with officials staring at him.  Another reason I don't want Kiffin.

And players must be made to sit out a few plays or a series. 

[arreferee]

The rules committee is going to come up with something like "if in the judgement of the official".  You're not going to be able tk get around having to make a call.  Some players will be legitimately injured and some will be faking.  The officials are going to have decide which ones are which.

I don't think so, Tim.  Again, no one wants the officials to determine whether an injury is fake or not.  The first time Arkansas got penalized for faking an injury, you would be the first one cussing the official claiming it was a real injury. 

From what I've heard, the committee has thrown around the idea of making a player sit out a certain number of plays (not just one) for an injury.  They just haven't pulled the trigger on making a change yet.

[arreferee]

who wants the officials to determine injuries? based on their medical knowledge?

I have worked a few games with a pediatric surgeon.   

[arreferee]

I see your point, but I also see the other posters' points, "they'll just say it is up to the official"... which doesn't help.  There needs to be some sort of injury # of plays or series time on the sidelines.  Then, of course, the Kiffin's and Freeze's of the world will just put in second stringers to take a fall..

I think this is where it will end up.  I don't think they will go as far as sitting out a quarter, but I could see the rules committee deciding that something like 3-4 plays would be sufficient.

[Thin Red Swine]

I don't think so, Tim.  Again, no one wants the officials to determine whether an injury is fake or not.  The first time Arkansas got penalized for faking an injury, you would be the first one cussing the official claiming it was a real injury. 

From what I've heard, the committee has thrown around the idea of making a player sit out a certain number of plays (not just one) for an injury.  They just haven't pulled the trigger on making a change yet.

This is really the only practical way.

If a guy is truly hurt, that restriction doesn't matter and if he isn't, then it's a reasonable form of penalty.


Now, back to fantasy land, make it so the other team can choose ANOTHER player from the offending team who also has to go out for the rest of the series. That would cut out sending the scrub in to slow things down. 

[The Whyte Boar]

Just fine them, fake injuries will go to zero overnight.  Make all fines payable at the end of the season.  Give a formal review process at the end of the season where medical records playing history and everything else can be reviewed.  The coach can lawyer up and get distracted with the whole process while he would rather be doing something else and of course, spending a shitload on attorneys.

You put that in place and after the first game, really injured players would be hobbling off the field as fast as they can.

What a lot of you don't seem to get is that for a guy like Kiffin, this is just a game.  He is looking at the SEC and everyone else and saying, "This is rule loophole I can use to my advantage and until you take it away, I'm going to use it."  As soon as it is addressed at all, he will stop using it and the issue will disappear and we'll go back to like it was for the previous 125 years of football where players had to be actually injured and tried to tough it out when they were.

But too many people want to over think it and ponder all the "what ifs" instead of just making a rule.  Make the rule and 99.9 percent of the "what ifs" disappear because teams will instantly stop abusing the rule in this way.

[arreferee]

Now, back to fantasy land, make it so the other team can choose ANOTHER player from the offending team who also has to go out for the rest of the series. That would cut out sending the scrub in to slow things down. 

That would put a stop to it immediately!   

[The Whyte Boar]

I don't think so, Tim.  Again, no one wants the officials to determine whether an injury is fake or not.  The first time Arkansas got penalized for faking an injury, you would be the first one cussing the official claiming it was a real injury. 

From what I've heard, the committee has thrown around the idea of making a player sit out a certain number of plays (not just one) for an injury.  They just haven't pulled the trigger on making a change yet.

That's even more stupid.  That penalizes a legitimately injured player more than he should be because people are too cowardly to make a judgment call when nearly every call is a judgment call to a degree already.

I'll be a lot more pissed when a legitimately shaken up starter has to sit half a quarter because he got his bell rung or his breath knocked out and couldn't immediately sprint off the field than I would be a coach who makes $9 million a year getting fined because an official thought he had a player fake an injury.

[Show-Me Hog]

TWB you're still assuming the answer. How do you determine when to fine them? It's impossible to determine. "Soft tissue injuries" or I felt a twinge or cramps that go away will be present in every single player when you try to fine the team or the coach.

[The Whyte Boar]

TWB you're still assuming the answer. How do you determine when to fine them? It's impossible to determine. "Soft tissue injuries" or I felt a twinge or cramps that go away will be present in every single player when you try to fine the team or the coach.

Most of these Kiffin injuries are oretty damned easy to spot.  Review the game film after every game.  If a player is writhing in agony but playing again at full speed after one play out, fine the coach.  Announce the fines every week on Monday or Tuesday after the game.  They aren't payable until after the season and after a more formal review process where the coach can lawyer up, present medical evidence, witness testimony, and whatever he wants. 

It would stop instantly with very few fines ever assessed and few to none ever collected.  It would also have a far lesser impact on the game than making legitimately injured players sit out longer than they should have to because guys like Lane Kiffin want to push the rules envelope. 

Within a year or so the rule would be so little used, people would forget it existed.

[DirkPiggler]

Most of these Kiffin injuries are oretty damned easy to spot.  Review the game film after every game.  If a player is writhing in agony but playing again at full speed after one play out, fine the coach.  Announce the fines every week on Monday or Tuesday after the game.  They aren't payable until after the season and after a more formal review process where the coach can lawyer ups, present medical evidence, witness testimony, and whatever he wants. 

It would stop instantly with very few fines ever assessed and few to none ever collected.  It would also have a far lesser impact on the game than making legitimately injured players sit out longer than they should have to because guys like Lane Kiffin want to push the rules envelope. 

Within a year or so the rule would be so little used, people would forget it existed.

Like I said before, every single kid on a D1 football field has some sort of documented injury that would show up on an X-ray, CT scan or MRI.  All they would have to do is show up to your year end meeting with this medical documentation and the whole process would immediately become a waste of time.

This is also how MLB teams get away with phantom IL stints for players who are struggling or just need rest.  They know they have some kind of injury they can fall back on if the league questions it.

[The Whyte Boar]

Like I said before, every single kid on a D1 football field has some sort of documented injury that would show up on an X-ray, CT scan or MRI.  All they would have to do is show up to your year end meeting with this medical documentation and the whole process would immediately become a waste of time.

This is also how MLB teams get away with phantom IL stints for players who are struggling or just need rest.  They know they have some kind of injury they can fall back on if the league questions it.

You damned right it is a waste of time.  A waste of time where the coach is spending $50k on attorneys.  A waste of time spending half a week in a hearing while he should be recruiting.  A waste of time where for half a year people are keeping up with the fines assessed and asking him about it at every press conference.

A huge waste of time.  The bigger the better. 

But hey, I'm sure you'd rather see our starting QB miss two series in the fourth quarter because he got a cramp. 

[Show-Me Hog]

Official team statements will refute you every single time.

Player safety is our number one priority in football games, even above winning and losing. We teach our players that when they feel a possible injury or cramps, to go to the ground so that the game may be stopped and our training staff may administer to them. This is the best course of action to ensure player safety. This is what occurred in (describe every instance during the game).

There is exactly 0.0% chance the NCAA is going to take any action to contradict that team statement. Not to inject politics into it, but especially when it involves a black player or a black coach. Can you just imagine the outcry of the NCAA ignores the safety concerns of young black men?

You're out of your depth Donnie.

[Show-Me Hog]

As to a coach signalling a player to go down, "it looked like he was struggling. I know Montrell, and I know he just didn't look right but was going to try to play through it. I wanted to make sure our training staff attended to him."

This isn't hard.

[The Whyte Boar]

Official team statements will refute you every single time.

Player safety is our number one priority in football games, even above winning and losing. We teach our players that when they feel a possible injury or cramps, to go to the ground so that the game may be stopped and our training staff may administer to them. This is the best course of action to ensure player safety. This is what occurred in (describe every instance during the game).

There is exactly 0.0% chance the NCAA is going to take any action to contradict that team statement. Not to inject politics into it, but especially when it involves a black player or a black coach. Can you just imagine the outcry of the NCAA ignores the safety concerns of young black men?

You're out of your depth Donnie.

Then it's an unfixable problem that will only be made worse when a stupid rule penalizes legitimately injured players by making them miss game time they shouldn't.

More games will be decided by key players absent from critical downs than were ever decided because of fake injuries slowing down offenses.

[The Whyte Boar]

As to a coach signalling a player to go down, "it looked like he was struggling. I know Montrell, and I know he just didn't look right but was going to try to play through it. I wanted to make sure our training staff attended to him."

This isn't hard.

Once again, the process is the punishment.  Don't care at all if a coach ends up not paying any fines.

[uagrad2007]

Then it's an unfixable problem that will only be made worse when a stupid rule penalizes legitimately injured players by making them miss game time they shouldn't.

More games will be decided by key players absent from critical downs than were ever decided because of fake injuries slowing down offenses.

Maybe that's why the rules committee hasn't made a rule change yet.

[Show-Me Hog]

Then it's an unfixable problem that will only be made worse when a stupid rule penalizes legitimately injured players by making them miss game time they shouldn't.

More games will be decided by key players absent from critical downs than were ever decided because of fake injuries slowing down offenses.

Yeah that's a problem too. Let's say your QB hurts his thumb on a helmet during the 2 minute drive when you're down by 6.  He needs to take a play off to tape it.

All of a sudden your backup QB has to conduct the entire game winning drive? Wtf?

There are 3 possibilities. (1) Remains the most likely. (3) seems like zero percent chance to me. Maybe we can jigger (2) so that it works both to stop fake injuries and get key players back in the game.

(1) Status quo right now
(2) Some kind of mandatory longer sit-out for the injured player
(3) Determination (either in real time or after the game) of what injuries are fake or real

[Show-Me Hog]

That last example just raised a new problem that I hadn't even seen.

What if a player comes off the field for injury but doesn't stop the game? Can he go right back in? How do we know why he went out of the game?

[The Whyte Boar]

Maybe that's why the rules committee hasn't made a rule change yet.

Just review the game film and fine coaches for obvious fake injuries.  This isn't speculation.  They are so obvious it's a national joke.  It really is much more simple than it is being made out to be.  For fuck's sake, they aren't even pretending to be legitimate now.  Make them pretend at least.