Other College Football

[Thin Red Swine]

100% agree. Pittman has not made a coaching decision that costcus a game. Kiffen, who coaches like he's playing Madden, is his own worst enemy.

We lost to OSU 100% due to turnovers.

I'm not saying Pittman is better than Kiffen. I'm simply saying he would produce slightly better results at best. We have a talent problem. We are not gonna get where everyone on this board wants to be until that us addressed.

If it's all about talent, why didn't A&M dominate under Jimbo?

Why hasn't Texas had better results outside 2005 or whenever and this year?

THIS is what I mean about not black and white. It takes an above average talented roster and an above average coaching staff firing on all cylinders to have a great season.

 I'm not advocating for firing Sam because I know it's not happening this year no matter what.

[Barton Fink]

If it's all about talent, why didn't A&M dominate under Jimbo?

Why hasn't Texas had better results outside 2005 or whenever and this year?

THIS is what I mean about not black and white. It takes an above average talented roster and an above average coaching staff firing on all cylinders to have a great season.

 I'm not advocating for firing Sam because I know it's not happening this year no matter what.

Just like TWB said nothing is guaranteed but can you say that the teams that won at a high level didn't have really good talent. Jimbo also was calling plays so he had a bigger inpact on the game. Even with Petrino as his OC.

The Dabo and Orgeron references are perfect examples. The years they won they had really good talent and really good coordinators. When those coordinators left, the dropped off. Wven look at Bama. Their best years were when they had Kiffen and Sark as OC.

Really good talent and really good coordinators have been most successful.

[animal]

For the Texas teams a lot of that talent that comes in is pretty much maxed out right out of the gates where as a lot of these kids coming from Miss, Georgia, and Florida are getting three squares a day for the first time in their life when they hit campus.

I'm going to assume with NIL and portal those Texas teams are able to make course corrections much easier now and that will potentially make them a force to reckon with.

[DirkPiggler]

Just like TWB said nothing is guaranteed but can you say that the teams that won at a high level didn't have really good talent. Jimbo also was calling plays so he had a bigger inpact on the game. Even with Petrino as his OC.

The Dabo and Orgeron references are perfect examples. The years they won they had really good talent and really good coordinators. When those coordinators left, the dropped off. Wven look at Bama. Their best years were when they had Kiffen and Sark as OC.

Really good talent and really good coordinators have been most successful.

Orgeron is the perfect example of why coaching does matter. 

With enough talent that is self-motivated to be great, any coach can win a title or come close. The 2019 LSU team won in spite of Ed O, not because of him.  They had enough talent to compete for a title every year he was there, yet they underachieved pretty much all except for their one great season. 

Larry Coker and Les Miles are also good examples.  Sometimes you can accumulate so much talent that you can't help but win at a high level in an isolated year.  I think Sam fits into this category.  Give him the Georgia rosters since he left there, and he might have stumbled into a title.  He also probably would've gone 9-3 or 8-4 a couple of times.  The bottom line is that he only adds value by staying out of the way.  If he keeps good coordinators and assembles a talented roster it can work.  But as we saw last year, slip up just a little bit in those areas and the result can be disastrous.

[Barton Fink]

My logic is centered around this....

90% of games are won by the players on the field and the plays that are called (on both sides of the ball). Leaving 10% for game management. If you're HC is involved in play calling, he's going to impact that 90% (which Pittman does not).

Prior to NIL/transfer portal, program + coaches probably make up ~80% of a kid's decision on where he wants to go to school. Leaving 20% for location. Now it's more like 80% is based on $$$ and 20% program + coaches. Location is out the window because kids know they can transfer if they don't like it.

Now a coach like Pittman impacts ~10% of the game and ~20% of recruiting. His coordinators have far greater inpact on the outcome. This why I believe hiring a new coach only slightly moves the needle if at all.

Case in point, our program was decent in '21 and had a great year in '22. We made progress 3 years straight. Even though he had his issues, we had KB as OC who is not a terrible OC. Last year we hired Enos who was absolutely awful and that's 100% on Pittman. This year we hire Petrino and we have improved with pretty much the same talent level. Our succes has fluctuated based on our coordinators more than anything.

If we win Saturday we are at 7 wins which is one less than '22. Sure we had chances to beat OSU and aTm but every team in the country is saying the same thing.

[Barton Fink]

Orgeron is the perfect example of why coaching does matter. 

With enough talent that is self-motivated to be great, any coach can win a title or come close. The 2019 LSU team won in spite of Ed O, not because of him.  They had enough talent to compete for a title every year he was there, yet they underachieved pretty much all except for their one great season. 

Larry Coker and Les Miles are also good examples.  Sometimes you can accumulate so much talent that you can't help but win at a high level in an isolated year.  I think Sam fits into this category.  Give him the Georgia rosters since he left there, and he might have stumbled into a title.  He also probably would've gone 9-3 or 8-4 a couple of times.  The bottom line is that he only adds value by staying out of the way.  If he keeps good coordinators and assembles a talented roster it can work.  But as we saw last year, slip up just a little bit in those areas and the result can be disastrous.

Look and see who those coaches had as OC when they had their best years and the dropoff occured when the OC left. Damn near every time.

[DrMongoose]

Coaching matters but the best demand excellence and don't beat themselves by being disciplined and fundamentally sound - I.e. Saban.

It is also why Kiffin and others won't break through because of attention to detail and lack of discipline (penalties).

Notice since Georgia has had all the off the field issues they have fallen. Saban never had that issue.

Petrino was the same way when he was HC here, discipline. I don't think Sam has it in him. JFB had Wilson Matthew's to be the heavy.

Arkansas has to outwork and outcoach to win. It is hard but it can be done.

[Barton Fink]

There's only been one Saban for a reason. I have a hard time believing guys like Dabo and Smart (especially with all his off the field issues) are detail oriented.

[egregious]

The head coach picks the coordinators and drives everything.  Whenever we get around to it we need a younger guy with a lot of connections to pick a staff or a good staff to bring with him.  If it is a young guy stepping up it should be a mix of guys he is familiar with coming with him plus the rest he knows from prior stops.

I would tell all the candidates to prep where they are planning to fill their staff from.  I would imagine that is a standard question anyway.

[animal]

There's only been one Saban for a reason. I have a hard time believing guys like Dabo and Smart (especially with all his off the field issues) are detail oriented.

That's not what has been implied the opposite. There are outliers like O, Dabo Dabba Do, and Miles among others that are just clowns that happened to capture lightning in a bottle.


Your type A do whatever it takes to win guys like Saban and Meyer are just really rare and probably will fade away with these charmin soft times.

Brian Kelly was kind of the annointed one but he's not doing it. They might as should have stayed with O and him fucking everything that crawls in Baton Rouge.

[Barton Fink]

They had really good coordinators when they won.

SP is more like Dabo and Coach O. He's not gonna win you games but his coordinators can. Hands off HC + elite coordinators + elite talent can win big. It's been proven. We have 2 of the 3.

[Cornhogio]

I think that the majority of fans and super donors don't see Sam Pittman as the guy that can get it done here at an elite level.  I agree that NIL money has a ton to do with success.  If the money doesn't see Sam as a guy that can get it done, they're not investing in him.  Why on earth would someone give him a bunch of money, knowing that his ceiling is 6 - 8 games a year?  It would be like investing in K-Mart or Sears.

[Barton Fink]

You're not paying for Pittman to win you games. He's only gonna impact ~10% of the outcome. You're paying for Petrino/Williams to win you games.

What is Pettino's ceiling?

No one has yet to name 1 realistic candidate that can win 8-10 games a year. The best option you have is calling plays on the sideline.

[vegashog]

I think that the majority of fans and super donors don't see Sam Pittman as the guy that can get it done here at an elite level.  I agree that NIL money has a ton to do with success.  If the money doesn't see Sam as a guy that can get it done, they're not investing in him.  Why on earth would someone give him a bunch of money, knowing that his ceiling is 6 - 8 games a year?  It would be like investing in K-Mart or Sears.

so if the next coach is barry odom, will they give? or will it be "i ain't giving for a retread"?

i'm not a pittman guy, but at some point the fans are going to have to quit relying on the the big money to carry nil and sack up. "the economy" and other excuses don't cut it when the poorest state in the union can do it.

tyson said himself that folks are crazy if they think he's bankrolling the basketball team year after year.

[Cornhogio]

so if the next coach is barry odom, will they give? or will it be "i ain't giving for a retread"?

i'm not a pittman guy, but at some point the fans are going to have to quit relying on the the big money to carry nil and sack up. "the economy" and other excuses don't cut it when the poorest state in the union can do it.

tyson said himself that folks are crazy if they think he's bankrolling the basketball team year after year.

I guess we're at an impasse, because I think that keeping a guy that has proven he's not capable of doing the job at an elite level, then blaming the fans for his poor performance, is giving up.  We might as well just focus on baseball and basketball, and get on other big teams schedules as rent a wins for non-conference games.

[animal]

They had really good coordinators when they won.

SP is more like Dabo and Coach O. He's not gonna win you games but his coordinators can. Hands off HC + elite coordinators + elite talent can win big. It's been proven. We have 2 of the 3.

Need to have that credibility to really grease the wheels of NIL and SP ain't that guy he's the guy that leans on it as a crutch for why he sucks. We might as well have Nutt back

[Cornhogio]

You're not paying for Pittman to win you games. He's only gonna impact ~10% of the outcome. You're paying for Petrino/Williams to win you games.

I don't agree with your impact allocations at all.  This is a results business, and the head coach is responsible for everything that happens or fails to happen.  If players aren't developed, it is his fault.  Money is a big part of it, but making players better while they're on your team matters too. 

[Barton Fink]

In '22 we were pretty good on offense but awful on defense. KB and Odom leave and we hire TWill and Enos. We make improvements on defense but are awful on offense. We fire Enos and hire Petrino. This year we see more improvement from TWill on defense and offense is much improved from last year.

None of that has to do with Pittman. We are as good as our coordinators plain and simple. We have 2 good one's. We lack talent.

[vegashog]

I guess we're at an impasse, because I think that keeping a guy that has proven he's not capable of doing the job at an elite level, then blaming the fans for his poor performance, is giving up.  We might as well just focus on baseball and basketball, and get on other big teams schedules as rent a wins for non-conference games.

not disagreeing with you, but my point (badly made i guess), was not just all about pittman.

the next guy is certainly going to look at the nil situation when considering the job.

[Barton Fink]

I don't agree with your impact allocations at all.  This is a results business, and the head coach is responsible for everything that happens or fails to happen.  If players aren't developed, it is his fault.  Money is a big part of it, but making players better while they're on your team matters too. 

He is accountable at the end of the day, yes. But he is not impacting winning and losing very much at all. He does not call offense or defense plays. He is not as impactful in recruiting as kid's are gonna go where the money is.

You're saying it's just coincidence that our success has swung based on who was our coordinators?